Phil Sturgeon

Just great... I still can't believe people still say php is shit, because you can write shit code in it...

You can write shit code in anything... its just a matter of wanting it.

Great article man!

By "shambling mess", I think a lot of folks are referring to the standard library, or lack thereof. The "everything is a global" monstrosity is both shambling *and* a mess, by all standards. For any reasonable, cross-platform developer to know whether any given search function in PHP is haystack needle, needle haystack, needle replacement haystack, replacement haystack needle...the confusion goes on and on. What about naming consistency? in_array has an underscore, but natsort doesn't. htmlspecialchars_decode doesn't follow either pattern.

This isn't something that can be fixed, though, by the language or a framework. PHP will never get rid of these inconsistencies and never-ending backwards-compatible nightmares. It's easy to get started in PHP because of it's sheer simplicity but it's virtually impossible to become a master (without becoming a little bit insane in the process).

Congratulations for the article, agreed.

Every language has its advantages and disadvantages and yours use case indeed. I'm totally happy with PHP and i also never went affected with these issues.

Props for a nicely supported rebuttal!

It seems to me that each language falls somewhere on a readable/writable continuum. PHP is extremely writable, largely because it is dynamically typed and also for many reasons specific to its design. However, I think there are some sacrifices in terms of readability that can easily get out of hand with non-descriptive code and poor organization. And while there is a lot of inexperience in the PHP user community, first of all, that's a testament to the language's accessibility, and secondly, those young nerds grow up to write borderline-poetic libraries like FuelPHP and Lithium!

Phil, you sir. Are a legend.

Totally agree with you. Great article.

@Matt: "to know whether any given search function in PHP is haystack needle, needle haystack, needle replacement haystack, replacement haystack needle...the confusion goes on and on." This is an absolute non-issue. If it is a problem its trivial at best.

Any decent IDE will autocomplete those methods and if you don't have auto complete you just hit CMD+Tab, CMD+T, php.net/strpos then you have your answer.

"This isn't something that can be fixed, though, by the language or a framework. PHP will never get rid of these inconsistencies and never-ending backwards-compatible nightmares. "

They easily could. As I said in the article I'm in no rush for them to do this, they might do it in PHP 6 or 7 but I know that transitioning from proceedural functions to primitive objects for strings and integers would be easy enough. Then we go from strlen($string) to $string->length() and we're all happy.

On another note this is of course ABSOLUTELY something that can be fixed by a framework, as I could write a class tomorrow that normalised all the weird string functions and worked like this:

$foo = new Str('something');

$foo->pos('thing');
$foo->replace('thing', 'stuff');

I won't, but I could. Don't say never, cant, wont, quite so much because none of this are absolute.

Great article, agreed !

@Phil You are taking all this too personal, I think. I have seen many PHP developers say "PHP sucks", including core developers. I've said it myself countless times. Over and over. Still, I am here, developing in PHP. After all, they are right, I am right, PHP does sucks and it sucks hard. Just like C sucks, just like Java, just like JS, just like any other popular language. The creator of C++ said "There are only two kinds of programming languages: those people always bitch about and those nobody uses" for a reason: Any popular language - and PHP is undoubtedly very popular - will naturally accumulate lots of bashing.

So really, don't take any of this too serious ;)

Nikic: I just wanted to put my thoughts out there to all the people complaining and moaning. I didn't have tears in my eyes and I wasn't breaking a stress-ball while writing the article. I don't take it personally because I didn't write PHP, but when I get named in an article complaining about PHP I need to put an answer to that.

Just like plenty of other developers I too have said "man that's annoying" about trivial things in PHP, but then got on with my day.

To be honest i like Ruby and Python more than PHP, but that does not mean that PHP is a bad language. PHP is a great language and a feature that i like most is the autoloading feature. What i miss is extending your classes during runtime but i can live with out it. People are always forgetting that with each language comes a certain mindset that a developer should adopt. You cant ask from PHP to do what other languages do and vice versa, to learn a new language is not enough just to learn the syntax you should develop the way of thinking and problem solving in its context too. And for anyone that doubts that it is a great language just take a look at the websites built with PHP. You cant do that with a crippled language. PHP earned its place and it is the web.

It's a fine rebuttal. You put that jerk--oh, wait. Crap.

Seriously, I don't *hate* PHP. I'm just exasperated with it. Gwynne Raskind's article on the PHP Advent site did a perhaps better job of explicating why, since Raskind didn't come across as a total curmudgeon about it.

I think PHP is a shambling mess for similar reasons that Javascript is a shambling mess: both grew in a rather undesigned, ad hoc fashion, and while later versions have started trying to add cleaner ways to do things, the old ways stick around because they can't be removed without breaking backwards compatibility. You can write lovely PHP code and you can also write lovely Javascript code, mostly by ignoring the bad parts of the language. (I'd love to see something for PHP like "[removed] the Good Parts"; while I know there is a "PHP: the Good Parts" book, the title lies.)

One can argue, as Douglas Crockford has, that despite all the shambling parts of Javascript, the core of the language is really well-designed. Is the same true of PHP? I suspect Phil and many others would say "yes" with little hesitation; while I wouldn't unhesitatingly say "no," I'm more inclined to "reply hazy, ask again later." PHP is certainly the most successful web language, and that's nothing to be sneezed at, as some commenters noted. Of course, if you count all the applications across all the large and small businesses that have been written in various incarnations of Visual Basic over the last three decades, it's far and away the most successful programming language ever.

(As an ironic footnote, shortly after I wrote the "COBOL" post, I became involved as a volunteer programmer on a fairly large web site built on the Yii PHP framework. No, I am not telling them to switch to Python.)

Watts: I wouldn't blindly just say "Yes the core is amazing everyone who wrote it is awesome" because I'm not an idiot. My whole point here is that while it's been trendy to bash on PHP you should have a reason for doing it. The PHP Advent talk made some good points and your post was mainly "So, there are some bits that aren't great". We know that, but what was the point of your article? "Bad things are bad"?

Applications built with PHP are only going to become a legacy nightmare if shit coders are coding them. If an application is well built in PHP it will stand the test of time, as while you are unhappy that PHP is progressing forwards I am content with the language as it is and am happy with what is on the horizon. There is not as much work to be done as you think and Zend are getting there.

Meanwhile projects like Pagoda Box and Composer are taking what we have forwards in other ways, meaning that if all we have to complain about is some historic irrelevant bugs and a weird order of string function parameters then... well we haven't really got all that much to complain about. Thats what it is at the end of the day, pointless complaining.

I consider PHP a poor language for any sort of development for only two reasons:

1) The core language has inconsistent function naming and argument ordering, which for me at least, required a heavy dependance on the manual to figure out how to call common simple functions, as I'm not great at memorising those sorts of facts. This makes me a lot less efficient in PHP.
2) The language design itself often makes the easiest way to do a thing be a really bad way to do that thing. The problem isn't that it allows people to write terrible code - I think the same is true of Ruby - a language I adore. The trouble is just that the language in many ways seems to encourage bad code, by making it the path of least resistance. There's no doubt a sufficiently excellent developer can build good quality software in PHP. The trouble is, especially with open source, that most contributors are not that disciplined. In some other languages where the easiest solution is often the cleanest and best solution, laziness is a virtue.

I hold somewhat of a grudge against PHP because early on in my hobby-driven interest in programming, I failed to make good software design choices in larger projects, and eventually those projects became unmaintainable before even reaching usable completion. It very nearly succeeded in making me give up on trying to learn to write software - in a depressed state, I looked at Ruby, and it showed me the tools I was using were making learning and building apps more difficult than they needed to be and teaching me bad habits. I strongly believe PHP is a poor language for beginners, and remain convinced that many people who would otherwise grow to become really great software designers would give up in the face of repeated failures on difficult platforms like PHP. As teaching programming to beginners is one of my passions, this problem is very close to my heart.

Jenna: You're basically saying that because PHP let you build crappy applications from the offset so you blame the language? Ruby has frameworks like Rails, Sinatra, Merb, Ramaze and whatever else which help you make clean, well structured code - that is the basic function of any framework - but there are similar frameworks to each of those in PHP.

If you write code in any language, from scratch, with no experience it's going to get messy. Having a framework to hold your hand is a good way to make it better. That is nothing to do with language at all.

I'm aware my post didn't go into any particular detail about what I didn't like about PHP. I could have found some nice things to say about it, or gone into excruciating detail about things I didn't even mention and perhaps should have. In one view, these omissions seem pretty outrageous--it leaves you with an article that's less than a thousand words and just says, in effect, "I've been a PHP developer for years and I'm finding the language increasingly frustrating and eventually I think it's going to collapse, so there." So, sure, if you're a PHP developer who doesn't agree with me, you're going to say, "Gosh, this is a terrible argument."

But the thing is, if I'd tried to go into excruciating detail about, say, why I think PHP's fundamental model of How The Web Works reflects an era of static web pages and is a liability in an era of MVC frameworks, several things would happen. One, the article would be thousands of words longer. Two, I'd have to try to anticipate specific objections ("sure, MVC frameworks have to load all their configuration information and initialize everything on each and every hit of their front controller, but in practice much of that is being cached and the speed penalty is negligible") and try to respond ("that doesn't make PHP's model better, it just means we're very clever at working our way around its flaws"), and I'd probably fail to anticipate everything anyway (as I no doubt have in this somewhat off-the-cuff paragraph).

And three, I'd probably bore the hell out of my readers. :) My blog touches on development issues, but it's not really "about" them. Things that your readers--not to mention the readers of the PHP Advent site!--would groove on are things that would likely make my audience glaze over. And, generally, I try to keep posts at a thousand words or less. Unfortunately, in cases like this, people who know as much or more about the subject as I do are likely to think I'm being pretty shallow.

I'm not unhappy that PHP is progressing forwards--I'm unhappy that for a long time PHP *hasn't* been progressing forwards. If 5.4 fixes things I consider warts (and it apparently does), that makes me happy. If forthcoming versions of PHP are going to remove deprecated functions and start gently pushing people toward writing better code--which I would argue really *is* a function of a language's design to some degree--that makes me happy. Understand that while I may be ranty (and you may disagree with said rant), I'm not *hoping* for PHP to become irrelevant and pointless in a decade. I'd rather be proved wrong than right!

PHP gets a bad rep due to lazy development. This comes back to the developer, not the language. To say people that drive a Honda are shitty drivers, doesn't mean that Honda makes a shitty car (just an example, dont have anything against Honda drivers). Behind the curtain PHP does have some issues, but what language doesn't. Once again, I feel that this comes down to the developer. There isn't just 1 way of doing things. If the excuse for your application is "Well its a known issue in PHP", then find another way of doing it and stop being a lazy developer. Its easy to write bad code in any language, PHP is just peoples first programming language. The more popular something is, the more its scrutinized.

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I learned Fortran as my first programming language because it was required in school. Then when I learned HTML and the web and that I needed a database instead of flat files using lines for records, I ended up knowing PHP.

I find PHP as the easiest to work with for web apps since most hosts supports PHP. Also, as a small time developer(not like Facebook serving up millions and millions, I have not come to a point that I needed to learn a new language to do web stuff).

PHP works and that's why these tools(languages) exist. PHP is easy to work with(what can you ask for?).

Sadly, some people who end up with companies requiring them to use another language looks highly of themselves because they can tag(piggyback) themselves with the new language they learned.

To all nonsense bashers, know that languages are just tools and that the programmer is what's important. A good background in Math and logic, and you having fun learning and knowing how others do things, is a luxury. I guess solid background in theories and being able to apply them, whatever language you are using, makes you a great programmer instead of a piggybacker.

@Paolo Umali: are you trying to say that when I know PHP and learn a new language I should not get a better paying job just because I knew PHP first? Forever be a humble slaving webmonkey?

I learned long time ago about the value and potential of PHP by reading an article of Jeff Atwood called "PHP Sucks, But It Doesn't Matter".

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2008/05/php-sucks-but-it-doesnt-matter.html

Most technologies that get (defacto)standarized on the mainstreem are questionable. For instance JavaScript and CSS could be just an option, but you will be seeing them for a long time on web.

"like what?"

You mean the thousands of functions shoved into the (until recently) only namespace(ie global)?

You mean how there are sometimes 5-10 methods that do roughly the same thing?

Why is it that PHP defenders know so little about programming concepts? Is there such a thing as an educated PHP fan?

I have yet to meet one.

Qwerty: Ok what is the base of your problem here.

1.) PHP only recently got namespaces. Well good, PHP recently got namespaces. +1
2.) There are 5-10 methods that do the same thing? That sounds like an exaggeration but I've never had a problem with having options.

You are another developer who assumes that because I use PHP as my primary tool I don't know anything about how "you real coders" do it? Well maybe that sort of comments make you feel big and clever but I've developed plenty of large, distributed API systems written in Ruby, I know how this shit works buddy.

I use PHP for a simple reason: Market share.

I could write the best invoicing application in the world using Erlang, but who the hell would install it? Instead I write one in PHP and it's getting 5 sales a day. Nice.

Check out the top CMS' right now: Drupal, Joomla, WordPress, ModX, ExpressionEngine. What language are they written in? PHP! I'm not defending their code, some of it is written really badly, but I've written a PHP CMS with very neat code and guess what? It's making me money.

It's not a competition to see who can have the shiniest prettiest language and you don't need to shit on people who use something different. I could use a different language for every single project I do, but if that fucks with my sales then why bother?

Ship, ship, ship. Don't just be a dick a whine about things that don't matter.

When I first started out writing HTML my code sucked big time but it still worked (almost) does that mean HTML is crap too? Cause if it is and we have to stop using something cause it lets any numpty with a computer be a coder, then I may as well get my application form into Tesco's.

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For those who enjoy stress symptoms, tiredness, excess fat, weariness, soreness, cramps, negative your rate of digestion, and other extreme well known problems, all the ph degree inside total body is probably too acidic.

System issues that can invest a whole lot more for your whole body to become exceedingly acid are sipping fatty acids, creation of fatty acids, as well as poor acidity treatment.

Swallowing nutrients that can be taken into consideration acidifying foodstuff as whole milk, ready-made sweets, steak, alcoholic beverage, espresso, along with. overloads ale your system so that you can reduce the effects of the entire chemicals.

Acidifying contaminants manufactured by means of microforms together with pathogenic agents on the physique. In case the person's body is exceedingly acid, yeasts, microforms, and pathoenic agents virally spread in to. Such thrive organisms establish still more harmful bacteria, and therefore soon add up to that actually acidic environment.

Certain acids have proven to be robust, whilst others may be low. Stomach acid add up happens when the physical structure platforms which often remove the chemicals commonly are not operational correctly, and is jeopardized. Various tools of the body stream acids that features vitamin stocks, breathalyzer, as well as extra weight.

Acids are thought unhealthy toxins, and they contaminants really should be extracted by using detoxing. You might want to aid your whole body in your detoxify course of action particularly when it is not necessarily operating actually.

If you desire to get yourself a well-balanced ph, you should have the proper meal plan together with eating plan. It's continue along with a good detoxing package which is able to considerably help you to often the detoxifying procedure. A weight loss program comprising things to eat loaded with alkaline, sufficient dietary supplements, along with hydrating your body effectively can aid the physique found in detoxification.

Also, there are alkalizing items <a >games online</a> that exist in retail outlets which usually increase often the ph amount owed. A well-maintained and also healthy and balanced ph quality can prevent level of acidity acquire by the body processes. If you feel, you’re you a variety of folks that has already created a certain acid solution build up or perhaps are certainly acidic, find a cleansing technique currently.

A toxin busting system does not only support your entire body in your purify approach, yet somehow also will assistance taming the ph stage into the system.

The entire body desires internal cleansing, knowing that are only able to performed through self control along with fortitude. <a >free games</a> Shifting certain items you will ever have will benefit anyone with a entire body further.

Always remember, you have to preserve a balanced ph-ion. You can promptly understand as well as background acidic gather if you are also citrus, which happens to be a quality some time to talk to your health specialist pertaining to good a full detox.Elemis Outline human body shaping detoxification capsule-reshapes and also revitalizes the system


Specified routine interest harmful bacteria straight to the entire body as soon as possible, in addition to the point that inside of our personal everyday living, contaminants the individual around assortment ideas. Without any we identifying it all, you grows into contaminated as well internal designs are generally affected from their effective works. All you are able experience and even think tend to be the chemical ailments.

You’d be aware that harmful toxins and bacteria have got collected within your physical body when you grow to be sluggish and therefore small, if you haven't ever performed a great deal external labor, and as you have heartburn, recurrent headaches, recurring shhh along with sluggish metabolic rate. Despite the fact that all of these may be often the signs of more life-threatening healthcare conditions, they're now able to remain asked to pay to toxics who enter into the physique. This conditions could lead to other problems that you're walking a chain most typically associated with rrssues from it.

Have the claim associated with poor metabolic process and heartburn. Many lead to things to eat that properly broken down so to result in the dietary fats at a standstill. For this reason any person increases a little more extra pounds, and also located at most severe goes downhill carrying excess fat. And also, since you'll find that you encounter sluggishness, a person very often will take significantly more though there’s plenty of into your stomach muscles now. The thought that you must take in additional foods to provide someone with enough electrical energy can be fake. Pay attention to which will it’s toxins that may weakens our bodies without having to the particular scarcity of daily allowance.

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The beauty with Elemis Silhouette human body contouring detox your body tablet is that you simply don’t need to going on a fast or sometimes deprive yourself of food to achieve required excessive fat. Yourrrre able to eat a modulated lunch along with bring a couple medicine to breakfast. You may reduce often the take just to single supplement you might like to possible the consequence. In the event that investing in this tool, you have to take in numerous the water in order to help the actual purification system.

Such as when you are <a >games online</a> choosing some other dietary supplements, various preventative determines really should be obeyed. Speak to your health professional before you take the exact prescribed drugs most recent, particularly in order to which are, lactating mother, to the individuals suffering with type 2 diabetes, blood pressure levels or maybe cardiovascular backsliding as well as thyroid gland sickness. In the case prevalent unsettled stomach has experience, lessen the usage.

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Reading through all comments I must say I fully agree with Phil. It's where so many technical people driven fail: being obsessed with building the perfect system. At the end of the day, the thing that matters is how your users experience your software, and as long as it does what it does, nobody gives a fuck. Sure, well written apps will scale better, be more stable and easier to change, but since 5.3 and frameworks like FuelPHP this is perfectly possible. The limit still is your own skills and talent in creating an awesome app: no end user will ever use an app because it's written in any particular language, nobody cares.

PHP is still my main choice because it allows me to build apps for clients on any scale. From the ones who want a simple thing that they run on a small shared host, to the big ones that want apps that run on big server farms.

Would it really kill you to plug akismet to your comments? I kind of like your blog and stuff, but reading it gets annoying when there's this much spam

Cfv: I HAVE implemented Akismet. Send your patrinising comments to their support forms to find out why this shit is getting through.

I clean house every few days. If that is not good enough for you then "I am kind of sorry and stuff".

Phil, learn to spell, and stop being a cunt all the time.

Anonymous: I would much rather be a cunt than a coward.